Premier League clubs to vote on scrapping VAR

Premier League clubs to vote on scrapping VAR....


https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/articles/c4n1ndlknk1o

I want it gone as it's ruining football....

Jürgen Klopp spoke about an incident involving a Rodri handball against Everton in 2022 that wasn’t given.....

“You pick yourself up and go again after not winning the league from a goal from Vinnie Kompany or a not given handball from Rodri. It was a crazy situation that handball,” Klopp said.....



“I don’t know where we played, but we were on the bus already and the game was on the tele.



“We watched it and the whole bus shouted ‘Handball! Wait, he’s not getting it?” You can’t change it, but not getting there and then having three weeks to prepare for a Champions League final, these few years were mad,” Klopp said.

It’s been a couple of years now, but it’s hard to understate just how poor a decision this was.

Even Dermot Gallagher agreed at the time that Rodri’s handball should’ve been given.

“It is a penalty, no doubt. I think the VAR inspected it for too long. Paul Tierney is looking through players, he can’t see the incident and Rodri is covering him. I think this should have been a VAR decision,” Gallagher said.

Of course, if a penalty was given, there’s no guarantee that it would’ve been converted, but if Everton did manage to draw that game, the tide of the title race may have been turned in Liverpool’s favour.....

This decision clearly still plays on Klopp’s mind at least a little bit.....

I think most people if not everyone by now is sick and tired of it. 5 seasons on in the Prem and it's only made it worst. The refs or VAR - one has to go, we know we can't vote to get rid of refs so by default the other has to happen.

Too many instances where he's been sent to the monitor for a non event and too many instances where he should've been sent to the monitor for a "clear and obvious" error.

Turning point was when Mac got sent off v Bournemouth.

It's not the VAR that's the problem it's the officials doing it.

I'd say scrap it, they're sh*te either way in this country. At least we'd be back to the days of being able to celebrate a goal without having to wait forever.

And before that tosser across the water comes back with his argument of there's too much money in the game for wrong decisions to be wrong. They get them wrong with VAR every game.

It's not the VAR that's the problem it's the officials doing it.

I'd say scrap it, they're sh*te either way in this country. At least we'd be back to the days of being able to celebrate a goal without having to wait forever.

And before that tosser across the water comes back with his argument of there's too much money in the game for wrong decisions to be wrong. They get them wrong with VAR every game.

They get them MORE wrong with VAR every game....

Nothing wrong with VAR it’s the officials who are crap so it has been show it makes no difference with or without, so may as well scrap it and let the game flow. Bent bas**rds

Jürgen Klopp spoke about an incident involving a Rodri handball against Everton in 2022 that wasn’t given.....

“You pick yourself up and go again after not winning the league from a goal from Vinnie Kompany or a not given handball from Rodri. It was a crazy situation that handball,” Klopp said.....



“I don’t know where we played, but we were on the bus already and the game was on the tele.



“We watched it and the whole bus shouted ‘Handball! Wait, he’s not getting it?” You can’t change it, but not getting there and then having three weeks to prepare for a Champions League final, these few years were mad,” Klopp said.

It’s been a couple of years now, but it’s hard to understate just how poor a decision this was.

Even Dermot Gallagher agreed at the time that Rodri’s handball should’ve been given.

“It is a penalty, no doubt. I think the VAR inspected it for too long. Paul Tierney is looking through players, he can’t see the incident and Rodri is covering him. I think this should have been a VAR decision,” Gallagher said.

Of course, if a penalty was given, there’s no guarantee that it would’ve been converted, but if Everton did manage to draw that game, the tide of the title race may have been turned in Liverpool’s favour.....

This decision clearly still plays on Klopp’s mind at least a little bit.....

Still plays on my mind....I posted about 5 posts on here about it at the time...There is no doubt that decision cost us the title.

https://x.com/LukeEdwardsTele/status/1790834833595232366

And this is why it needs scrapping... another day another decision. 

Get rid of VAR. Embarrassing.

Of course VAR should be scrapped but with human nature City will win the league every year.

Brown envelopes carry a lot of sway.

It's not the VAR that's the problem it's the officials doing it.

Agree.  Seems to work well in European games.

VAR has been sh*t but scrapping it may give officials even more leeway to shaft us. Least bad option might be to have automated AI VAR and just use it for offsides and nothing else.

We may just have to put up with the biased or corrupt officiating. VAR may make it slightly more difficult for them but it sure as hell didnt stop them. And it made it even harder to stomach their more ridiculous "mistakes".

Scrapping PGMOL and massively expanding the ref pool (and randomising the selection of officials for each match) would be a  help.

For those saying “it’s not VAR, it’s the people behind it”, isn’t VAR the package? The assistant referee and the technology being used? They go hand in hand, no? So when the guys on the other side of the argument say “get rid of VAR it’s useless”, they mean the entire network.

I liked idea of VAR it's just been used incompetenyly there will be poor decisions without it and refs will have the easy kopout of saying we didn't have VAR. Just don't whinge when it's not here when you wish it gone can't have it both ways surely as in infancy it can be improved just think backward step to give up on it now just sort the technology,speed and skills of the majority that operate it

This VAR thing is at least weakened the human referees. I'm one for get rid or if persist with it need a lot improvement.

Keep it

Statically more decisions are correct than without

But it’s we if we get rid and most of Europe, cl and international footy has it

I would be open to getting rid if semi offside tech  were a thing

How about using it properly and stop being scared of overruling the match official if he misses something or gets it wrong?

The life has gone from the goals now, sure the players start to celebrate but soon as a VAR check starts the whole place goes numb and you can almost hear the joy leaving the ground. We then sit/stand/swear for 3 mins while some numb fukker draws lines on a screen, depending which angle he chooses to look from depends on the result. And if his grandad was born in Manchester then you can forget that 91st minute winner against City.

We need something but VAR isn't the answer. To much human intervention for it to be 'corrupt' by who they support, where they come from or brown envelopes.

The Spurs game saw the linesman miss a corner from about 5 metres it wasn't even close. Officials are just not up to it so VAR never will be. Gordon last night again wtf happened the lad nearly lost his ankle get rid

Sky sports saying Lfc want to keep it wtf.

Sky sports saying Lfc want to keep it wtf.

 

Sky sports saying Lfc want to keep it wtf.

I don't think we'll be alone.

Listening to 5Live on the way home last night and the football journalist on there didn't think it would pass the threshold on a vote.

Fans seem to universally despise it. Maybe fans will realise that they should just pay up and shut up.

Ruins the game for the fans, who at the end of the day pay, the player's wages. If it cannot be run more efficiently by officials VAR needs scrapping.

I don't know how I feel about it being scrapped.

On the one hand, there's nothing wrong with VAR, it's a fantastic idea, in theory. On the other hand, in practice, the people operating it need to reset and go again.

I'd like to see the following:

1. Ex-professional footballers to referee football matches
2. And/or, ex-professional footballers to operate VAR
3. VAR decision-making made audible during games for all to hear (I'm sure rugby does this)
4. Chief VAR official, to give a quick interview after the match finishes (like managers/players do)

Fans seem to universally despise it. Maybe fans will realise that they should just pay up and shut up.

Yep. Clubs dont give a fcuk about the fans or what they want, ours included.

Most fans dont want it. The clubs will know where their bread is buttered and fcuk the fans and ensure it stays. Then said clubs will spend all of next season bitching about it , crying and whining about it. I hate this game most of the time now and all the bs that comes with it. No idea why i bother watching it.

My 8 year loves it. He called me this morning and asked if he could get more panini stickers after school. Said he wants to get his favourite player. I said youve already got him son, Jota. He says no dad hes your favourite. My favourite is Trent and ive not got him yet ... ok son 5 more packs tonight 🤣🤣

The problem VAR has is that at the moment it just highlights incompetency. Before it was used when referees made mistakes we said 'oh they only had one look at it' and whilst we were frustrated as F**k at bad decisions it was easier to move on.

Now we've got referees looking at things again with multiple angles and still making big mistakes. Howard Webb will respond and say decisions are '8 or 9% more accurate' but let's not forget to get to those figures he's counting things like the Doku challenge on Mac Allister as not being an error. The reality is that VAR has not improved things much at all - especially as referees on the pitch are now scared to make decisions so whilst it may look like the VAR has 'overturned' them, they may have responded differently if it was just them making the call.

Taking away VAR improves the supporter experience - we can celebrate goals instantly and situations are not shrouded in secrecy. Unfortunately though it will not get to the bottom of the problem which is that referee standards in this country have dropped massively and that the PGMOL are not fit for purpose.

I don't think we'll be alone.

Listening to 5Live on the way home last night and the football journalist on there didn't think it would pass the threshold on a vote.

Most of the clubs do want to keep it - they just want it to be better

What assurances could they possibly anticipate that it'll get better? Considering you need an assistant ref sat behind the bleeding thing. It's been 5 years, no signs of improvement. How many more times do clubs need to be screwed over before they get the message?

What assurances could they possibly anticipate that it'll get better? Considering you need an assistant ref sat behind the bleeding thing. It's been 5 years, no signs of improvement. How many more times do clubs need to be screwed over before they get the message?

It's getting worse, if anything....

I don't know how I feel about it being scrapped.

On the one hand, there's nothing wrong with VAR, it's a fantastic idea, in theory. On the other hand, in practice, the people operating it need to reset and go again.

I'd like to see the following:

1. Ex-professional footballers to referee football matches
2. And/or, ex-professional footballers to operate VAR
3. VAR decision-making made audible during games for all to hear (I'm sure rugby does this)
4. Chief VAR official, to give a quick interview after the match finishes (like managers/players do)

As you say the introduction of VAR was well intentioned, and like most innovations it's true value (or otherwise) could only be established by putting it into practice. For me, and according to polls, most fans, think it has failed the test.
Looking at your proposals I can see a minefield of issues.
1. Ex-players are loaded and don't need the money....but if they do want to make even more, they can get it much easier via the media. Second point, ex players would have definite bias....and why would they open themselves up the abuse they would no doubt generate?
2. See above answer.
3.Hearing it would make no difference to the judgement, You would hear a good call made, or you would hear a bad call made...Same result.
4.First of all it's impossible for a single person to have watched all the games, and second, even if he watched just the key incidents and formed an opinion what would be the purpose or benefit?..Where does he give this opinion?...and to who?...The game is finished and any mistake found is immaterial and can't affect the result.

Most of the clubs do want to keep it - they just want it to be better

It's likely the top ranked clubs will want to keep it more than the lower ranked. Referee's give (probably subconsciously) advantageous calls to bigger clubs than to small clubs...there's loads of examples of it. Also, the clubs prefer the slight increase in accuracy over fan experience.
As for wanting it to get better, with better tech there is a chance of a clearer more accurate outcome with offside; all other calls will still be subject to subjectivity, and therefore can be no better or worse.

1. Ex-players are loaded and don't need the money....but if they do want to make even more, they can get it much easier via the media. Second point, ex players would have definite bias....and why would they open themselves up the abuse they would no doubt generate?

Use ex-professionals from the lower leagues. As for abuse and bias, that's going to happen whether you're a referee from Wolverhampton, an ex-player from Doncaster Rovers, or an alien from another planet. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't try it. It can be dealt with.

2. See above answer.

The thing is, no matter, who, there will be bias. So get someone who knows how to play the game at a high level, i.e. professionally and deal with the bias if it becomes a thing. Sometimes you just have to trust that someone will be professional and do the job they are being paid for.

3.Hearing it would make no difference to the judgement, You would hear a good call made, or you would hear a bad call made...Same result.

Having your decision-making for all to review, means you will be more conscious about getting things right. Part of the problem as I see it, is currently, you have faceless officials making decisions left right and centre, and they can do so without any fear of being suspended, or dropped down a league or two.     

4.First of all it's impossible for a single person to have watched all the games, and second, even if he watched just the key incidents and formed an opinion what would be the purpose or benefit?..Where does he give this opinion?...and to who?...The game is finished and any mistake found is immaterial and can't affect the result.

You only need one VAR chief at each game where VAR is being used. They give their opinion pitch-side, or in front of an advertising screen, or even in a studio if you like. The point is that someone (the chief) is going to have to explain why certain decisions were made, and if I was the chief having to face the reporters, I'd be making absolutely sure those I'm watching over, will be doing their job correctly.

Mistakes will happen, no matter what, but someone has to explain the reasons for that. Right now the officials are making some bad decisions and the only ones marking their homework, is the officials.

TL;DR: It needs monitoring. Right now, there's nothing.

Seriously how many times have you seen a clear offside at a glance yet it takes minutes to confirm.  Not fit for purpose we have been sold a dud

They get them MORE wrong with VAR every game....

When it comes to offsides, it's more than clear that the touchline officials get them more wrong.

It's almost impossible for the lone touchline official on one side of the field to maintain the same horizontal line as the deepest defender while concurrently judging when the ball left the foot of the passer dozens of meters behind the frontline. Wrong angles and lag team are the issues these official deal with dozens of times per match and as VAR proves every match, the officials get many wrong.

The reality is, to officiate a game more accurately without VAR requires many more officials...and even then.....

And don't get me started how two touchline officials are deemed sufficient to cover 346m of perimeter.
It defies logic how one touchline official can be expected to accurately assess out of bounds on a 105m touch line and a 68m goal line when he is prevented from crossing the center line and doesn't possess x-ray vision to see through 22 players parked in the penalty area in order to assess if the ball crossed the goal line on the other side of the non-transparent net structure.

I could go into a lengthy dissertation on the "rules interpretation" of football, emphasizing the word "foot", yet focusing on allowed "handplay" by officials....ie.....grab bing/clutching clothing/arms/shoulders. The rules read one way but the game is officiated as one giant gray area interpretation instead and the action & scoring suffer because of this.
You want better on-field officiating, enforce the rules as written and require officials to judge more black & white instead of grey...... or rewrite the rules

Anyway, zero chance VAR gets voted out
With gambling so mainstream now, no way the powers in charge are leaving big decisions to one official on an island.
Big Football must present as much transparency as possible.

It's all becoming clear now - the FA appointed VAR controllers/viewers/general officialdom who contrive to regain complete control of games by making outrageous judgements of game-changing incidents captured on camera hoping to make a nonsense of the camera does not lie ethic.

The premise is given substance by the ridiculous judgements that the world and his wife witness every week in the Premiership,

People defending var ... bizarre.

All the big on field howlers this season ... arsenal handball , city chest high studs, united keeper punching the wolves player in the face ... i could be here all day, all the on field howlers have not been overturned by var. So get rid of it. Last night a clear pen on gordon not given ... var looks at it ... sees the clear foul down the back of the calf everyone sees ... and wont give it. So WHAT IS THE F*CKING POINT? As ive said for alongtime ... its another avenue to corruption. The var just gives what it wants to happen. Next week if it suits what they want they give the opposite decision for the same offence.

Remember the rodri handball at goodison in the last minute that cost us the title ... the 2 manchester boys taylor and kavanagh one in the middle one on var ... one didnt give it on the pitch and one didnt overturn it via var ...

Its not fit for fcuking purpose. Get rid of it. Goaline technology and automated offside and get on with the rest.

Var has ruined football. The f*cking bellends that run the game constantly f*cking about with the rules of the game have also ruined it.

Who understands the rules anymore? Who enjoys a goal to the full anymore ? Nobody, because theyve made sure you cannot.

The game is a mess. It was fine before var and it will be much better off without it. Football is a circus now ... of corruption and incompetence. Even the team winning the league every season is corrupt to the core.

Use ex-professionals from the lower leagues. As for abuse and bias, that's going to happen whether you're a referee from Wolverhampton, an ex-player from Doncaster Rovers, or an alien from another planet. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't try it. It can be dealt with.

The thing is, no matter, who, there will be bias. So get someone who knows how to play the game at a high level, i.e. professionally and deal with the bias if it becomes a thing. Sometimes you just have to trust that someone will be professional and do the job they are being paid for.
Having your decision-making for all to review, means you will be more conscious about getting things right. Part of the problem as I see it, is currently, you have faceless officials making decisions left right and centre, and they can do so without any fear of being suspended, or dropped down a league or two.     

You only need one VAR chief at each game where VAR is being used. They give their opinion pitch-side, or in front of an advertising screen, or even in a studio if you like. The point is that someone (the chief) is going to have to explain why certain decisions were made, and if I was the chief having to face the reporters, I'd be making absolutely sure those I'm watching over, will be doing their job correctly.

Mistakes will happen, no matter what, but someone has to explain the reasons for that. Right now the officials are making some bad decisions and the only ones marking their homework, is the officials.

TL;DR: It needs monitoring. Right now, there's nothing.

You're correct, all ex-players (at any level) would be subject to bias......because all human beings are subject to bias ....(Aliens I'm not 100% sure about).
There's no evidence that ex-players are better referees in any sport...are tennis umpires ex-players? Plus we already have someone we trust to make judgements professionally....he's  called a referee.
There's no evidence that having your judgement "listened" to would influence how it was arrived at. Also, it's not easy to ever agree what constitutes an error...example Liverpool fans think Odegaard handled the ball at Anfield, Arsenal fans think he didn't....There is no way ever of knowing that he did, or didn't handle the ball deliberately, that's why a ref has to guess...it was an error to us, but not to the officials or Arsenal fans.
As for your last point....as I said even if it was possible to have a VAR chief? at every game (Who would pay them?) It wouldn't, and couldn't affect the result post match...and therefore...pointless. As you correctly summed it up....Mistakes will happen, no matter what.

I genuinely couldn't tell you the handball rule anymore, and I've been a football fan for almost half a century.

If it ain't broke, comes to mind.

People defending var ... bizarre.

All the big on field howlers this season ... arsenal handball , city chest high studs, united keeper punching the wolves player in the face ... i could be here all day, all the on field howlers have not been overturned by var. So get rid of it. Last night a clear pen on gordon not given ... var looks at it ... sees the clear foul down the back of the calf everyone sees ... and wont give it. So WHAT IS THE F*CKING POINT? As ive said for alongtime ... its another avenue to corruption. The var just gives what it wants to happen. Next week if it suits what they want they give the opposite decision for the same offence.

Remember the rodri handball at goodison in the last minute that cost us the title ... the 2 manchester boys taylor and kavanagh one in the middle one on var ... one didnt give it on the pitch and one didnt overturn it via var ...

Its not fit for fcuking purpose. Get rid of it. Goaline technology and automated offside and get on with the rest.

Var has ruined football. The f*cking bellends that run the game constantly f*cking about with the rules of the game have also ruined it.

Who understands the rules anymore? Who enjoys a goal to the full anymore ? Nobody, because theyve made sure you cannot.

The game is a mess. It was fine before var and it will be much better off without it. Football is a circus now ... of corruption and incompetence. Even the team winning the league every season is corrupt to the core.

I'm not sure anyone is defending VAR per se more than can see it's more the people operating it than the actual systems themselves.

For me really need to go back to basics, simplify a lot of the rules and then allow VAR to assist and more importantly overule the referee when needed.

I genuinely couldn't tell you the handball rule anymore, and I've been a football fan for almost half a century.

If it ain't broke, comes to mind.

And that is what's at the core of the issue...What constitutes an error? No wonder it's almost impossible to agree on, we don't even have clear unambiguous parameters of the rules.

Football is a mess, and the more they fcuk about with it the messier it gets. Dump VAR and have one ref, two linesmen, and just accept that they make mistakes now and again...It's what the vast majority of fans want.

Have a good day fella

I'm not sure anyone is defending VAR per se more than can see it's more the people operating it than the actual systems themselves.

For me really need to go back to basics, simplify a lot of the rules and then allow VAR to assist and more importantly overule the referee when needed.

VAR is a system that works in conjunction with humans, humans have always and will always make mistakes. There can't be a VAR system without human interaction, and so it will always be subject to error.
When some say it's just the people using it...that's true, they are the "People" who make the call (sometimes correctly). But this reminds me of the "Guns are not bad, it's just the people who use them" argument...Again it's true, a gun, even a loaded gun is just a heap of metal and no danger at all....until a human being picks it up. In this country, we decided years ago that to minimise gun violence, we would ban the sale of them to the public. We couldn't take the gamble of hoping, or trusting that the people using them wouldn't kill anyone...the person is the one who makes the error, (Did I read somewhere that most gun deaths are caused by accident?)...but you can't shoot someone without a gun, and you can't make a bad VAR call....without VAR.

VAR is a system that works in conjunction with humans, humans have always and will always make mistakes. There can't be a VAR system without human interaction, and so it will always be subject to error.
When some say it's just the people using it...that's true, they are the "People" who make the call (sometimes correctly). But this reminds me of the "Guns are not bad, it's just the people who use them" argument...Again it's true, a gun, even a loaded gun is just a heap of metal and no danger at all....until a human being picks it up. In this country, we decided years ago that to minimise gun violence, we would ban the sale of them to the public. We couldn't take the gamble of hoping, or trusting that the people using them wouldn't kill anyone...the person is the one who makes the error, (Did I read somewhere that most gun deaths are caused by accident?)...but you can't shoot someone without a gun, and you can't make a bad VAR call....without VAR.

Fair point mate and why I think along with VAR there needs to be a decision made to simplify some of the rules.

Did I hear last week offside mate be changed so that it's only offside if the attacker is clear in front of the last man? Things like that help limit the human error and judgement side of things.

Most of the clubs do want to keep it - they just want it to be better

Think we can all agree on that Pj. Maybe if we get sack of all the Premier league refs and get the Europeans in we would be in a better place. I don’t think for a second it will be voted out. I’d hazard a guess of maybe 5/6 clubs wanting out.

What do you lot think?

There are some procedural issues but doesn't matter how they tweak it, blatant 'mistakes' will happen over and over again. The 'Doku lunge' for example was hardly looked at. Even the Villa game. Their equaliser looked very close to being hand ball but it was hardly reviewed.

It will change slightly, and they'll claim for the better, but I highly doubt it.

Get it to fck, if the so called experts can't get right after looking at a screen for 5 minutes what's the point. I hated it when it came in and I hate it even more now, especially what it's cost us this season. There have always been contentious decisions in the game, sometimes we don't like it. Now we have guys acting like maths teachers drawing stupid lines and as I said they still can't decide. As a sidenote if it's kept when will the first woman appear on the scene, it's only a matter of time.

Of course VAR should be scrapped but with human nature City will win the league every year.

Brown envelopes carry a lot of sway.

It's the same now mate. The officials are paid off to favour the big boys with VAR.

I've said before that they didn't need this overly complicated system. One pitch side monitor. Two, possibly three appeals per team. Only for penalties and red cards. Ref goes to monitor, checks all the angles, gives the decision. Some will say..' ah but the ref won't want to contradict himself '.

Oliver for example said the Doku studs up on Mac's was a 'coming together'...now the VAR ref went along with that for some unkown reason and it wasn't really reviewed.

Now lets say VVD appealed it. There's no way Oliver, having looked at all the angles could claim it was a coming together. So under the system I'm promoting the Ref HAS to review it. Under their system there's no guarantee they'll review it and mistakes can't be corrected.

And it's the blatant mistakes that are being accepted by VAR. And that's the nub of the problem.

Lots "F**k VAR " being sung this weekend then just to remind owners how fans feel

Never ever happening I'm afraid. Var here to stay.

Needs improving big time. The directive not to re referee the game not a good one. Some referees are that bad it needs re refereeing.

If it does stay, it's the one area of life I wouldn't mind AI taking over completely. For something that is meant to iron out human error, there is a lot of human error happening...

If it does stay, it's the one area of life I wouldn't mind AI taking over completely. For something that is meant to iron out human error, there is a lot of human error happening...

It is impossible for VAR to 100% iron out human error, at best it may reduce or minimise it. If it stays, you have to accept it will be fallible and many judgements will remain contentious and unresolved. We are a million years away from AI being able to moderate a football match (in real time)...in much the same as it is a million years away from plumbing in a toilet.

It is impossible for VAR to 100% iron out human error, at best it may reduce or minimise it. If it stays, you have to accept it will be fallible and many judgements will remain contentious and unresolved. We are a million years away from AI being able to moderate a football match (in real time)...in much the same as it is a million years away from plumbing in a toilet.

Then get rid of it.

I’d rather have more real time mistakes being made if it means I get the ability to celebrate a goal again… if there’s going to human errors no matter what, get rid of the option that drains the joy from the game in my opinion.

Then get rid of it.

I’d rather have more real time mistakes being made if it means I get the ability to celebrate a goal again… if there’s going to human errors no matter what, get rid of the option that drains the joy from the game in my opinion.

Totally agree with you, it has completely diluted the match experience and needs to go....now.

The improved decision making is bollix and typical of people who need to produce stats because they simply cannot understand that football is an emotional game and not an accounting exercise

Lots "F**k VAR " being sung this weekend then just to remind owners how fans feel

I can't imagine there's anything less likely to engage the mind of a multi-millionaire football club owner, than the rules of the game, or how those rules might be interpreted.

The issue is not VAR but how they use it and WHO use it.

They should be full time VAR not one day referee and the other day on VAR duty.

The issue is not VAR but how they use it and WHO use it.

They should be full time VAR not one day referee and the other day on VAR duty.

Many say the same thing including myself. However, until they sack those running  VAR  nothing will change. We need new blood/officials coming in from Europe.   

Work out how many points VAR has cost us this season... add it to our points total... I'll leave that right there.
And we're not the only one's.

How can we as a club defend the very system that has taken potential title winning points of us IN ERROR!?!

It stinks, the Ref's stink and it needs to go - here's our chance.

Jürgen would vote to scrap it. As they won't get tid of the people running it .
Don't watch his last interview without a tissue to hand...now it's real he is leaving. Gave the best reference to the people of Liverpool I have ever heard

It's an ill thought out system and will carry on giving numerous wrong decision.

Jürgen said in his presser that the people using VAR are not capable of using it properly and as you can’t change the people, he would vote to scrap it...... YNWA

Jürgen said in his presser that the people using VAR are not capable of using it properly and as you can’t change the people, he would vote to scrap it...... YNWA

Pretty much my stance.

Jürgen said in his presser that the people using VAR are not capable of using it properly and as you can’t change the people, he would vote to scrap it...... YNWA

It would be interesting to know what he means by "Using it properly" Are there set guidelines for how it is supposed to be implemented that are being ignored, either in error or deliberately? I presume he means the operators are just inconsistent and lack knowledge.

The real issue is that the Captain should be able to appeal the decision. The ' clear & obvious' error is too, well error prone. Accident waiting to happen territory. We would've appealed 'Doku' straight away.

So giving the captain 2 possible 3 appeals does away with the ludicrous C & O error nonsense. Just for penalty or ref cards. Offside decision will be decided by technology.

The real issue is that the Captain should be able to appeal the decision. The ' clear & obvious' error is too, well error prone. Accident waiting to happen territory. We would've appealed 'Doku' straight away.

So giving the captain 2 possible 3 appeals does away with the ludicrous C & O error nonsense. Just for penalty or ref cards. Offside decision will be decided by technology.

A bit like cricket, more time consuming but no one seems bothered about that these days. Obviously the  captain will have so many seconds before he’s counted out. However, tricky to implement. The opposition could play/carry on within a nano nano second 🤷‍♂️

The real issue is that the Captain should be able to appeal the decision. The ' clear & obvious' error is too, well error prone. Accident waiting to happen territory. We would've appealed 'Doku' straight away.

So giving the captain 2 possible 3 appeals does away with the ludicrous C & O error nonsense. Just for penalty or ref cards. Offside decision will be decided by technology.

But does the appeal system change anything? VAR looked at the Doku challenge and thought it was fair. What would us 'appealing' do? The VAR would still have said no pen?

There's no way the PL will allow the division to be an outlier from the top 30 leagues in the world. 29 of which use VAR with Sweden I believe opting out.

The officials are incapable of running a game look at how many throw inns are a, not taken from the place where the ball went out b, foul throws, free kick are given for an infringement if a, you try to take a quick one the the ref stops it b, when you take a free kick the is numerous player no where near 10 yards away so the team who were fouled gain no advantage, if you get injured during a foul against you, you have to stay off the pitch 30 seconds after the game restarts
 
 Reffing is shocking so the least they are involved the better

There's no way the PL will allow the division to be an outlier from the top 30 leagues in the world. 29 of which use VAR with Sweden I believe opting out.

They will have to allow it if the threshold is met in the vote......otherwise there would be no point of voting

They will have to allow it if the threshold is met in the vote......otherwise there would be no point of voting

According to Henry Winter the PL can veto the vote regardless.

That being said I don't think the scrapping of VAR is what is really at play here. Think this vote is just to show clubs are unhappy with how it's going and this will put pressure on the PGMOL to improve and also on IFAB to change certain protocols.

What you will probably see is greater transparency in the stadium and the ability to hear the audio like in most other sports.

According to Henry Winter the PL can veto the vote regardless.

That being said I don't think the scrapping of VAR is what is really at play here. Think this vote is just to show clubs are unhappy with how it's going and this will put pressure on the PGMOL to improve and also on IFAB to change certain protocols.

What you will probably see is greater transparency in the stadium and the ability to hear the audio like in most other sports.

I didn't know about the veto......For me any vote which can be veto'd is a waste of time. I take your point about it being a sounding board to gauge the mood officially, but the PGMOL are in contact with football authorities and administrators, and the media etc.etc....they already know the system isn't working as designed. Clarity over the rules will help, ie what is the threshold for handball in the box?...there are all kinds of opaque situations which are a pen one week and not a pen the next...some send the ref to the monitor...some do nothing. My question is can it really be improved?...improved enough that the decision making is far more accurate than it is now? I think there can be gains, but they would be minimal, and nowhere near enough to justify the use of system. The system is convoluted, it takes too long, it's overly inconsistent...and all those things combined add up to a diluted match experience and mind-blowing frustration for the spectators....Remember it is supposed to be entertainment.
I've said before I'm not convinced there's anything to be gained from fans hearing a VAR official telling the ref something that those fans adamantly disagree with. An example: VAR official over the tannoy says "Odegaard potential handball...judged to be accidental" Do you think anyone in Anfield feels even a smidgen better for hearing that?....neither did I.

But does the appeal system change anything? VAR looked at the Doku challenge and thought it was fair. What would us 'appealing' do? The VAR would still have said no pen?

No the Doku challenge wasn't looked at. The appeals I'm taking about is not to the VAR ref. It sends the match Ref direct to the monitor and the ref could quickly realise the error.

The biggest problem with VAR is the ludicrous 'clear & obvious ' error rule. It's not clearly defined and never can be. The solution is to give the power of appeal to the captain and to send the match ref to the pitch side monitor. It's not that time consuming, it would speed up decisions.

The Doku challenge was dismissed because Oliver said it was a 'coming together' VAR was heavily influenced by that, The captain appealing takes away the uncertainty surrounding the ludicrous 'clear & obvious' error tosh. It is the problem.

A bit like cricket, more time consuming but no one seems bothered about that these days. Obviously the  captain will have so many seconds before he’s counted out. However, tricky to implement. The opposition could play/carry on within a nano nano second 🤷‍♂️

It's not time consuming and it's not tricky to implement. The fans can see the Red doing something. In fact it would be quicker and easier to do away with VAR. All VAR should do is goal line and offside,

Skipper 3 appeals, Pens and red card. Skipper appeals, ref quickly over to monitor, checks the angles etc gives the decision.  The whole process is speeded up and it's part of the drama. As it is now everybody stands about, the crown don't know whether to laugh or cry and all kinds of mistakes are being made, It's a nonsense.

Most of the time consuming is actually over offside. Speed that up with technology, give the club the right of pitch appeal. After all it's the clubs and fans that matter. Clubs have millions on the line and they have no right of appeal. It's an ill thought system.

Skipper makes an appeal..loses it..much less whinging over it. VAR sometimes does a through check, sometimes they don't, sometimes they send the ref to the monitor, sometimes they don't. It's ludicrous.

It's not time consuming and it's not tricky to implement. The fans can see the Red doing something. In fact it would be quicker and easier to do away with VAR. All VAR should do is goal line and offside,

Skipper 3 appeals, Pens and red card. Skipper appeals, ref quickly over to monitor, checks the angles etc gives the decision.  The whole process is speeded up and it's part of the drama. As it is now everybody stands about, the crown don't know whether to laugh or cry and all kinds of mistakes are being made, It's a nonsense.

Most of the time consuming is actually over offside. Speed that up with technology, give the club the right of pitch appeal. After all it's the clubs and fans that matter. Clubs have millions on the line and they have no right of appeal. It's an ill thought system.

Skipper makes an appeal..loses it..much less whinging over it. VAR sometimes does a through check, sometimes they don't, sometimes they send the ref to the monitor, sometimes they don't. It's ludicrous.

Hey I’m up for it and not knocking the idea. I’m just making a comparison with cricket. Don’t they get something like 15 seconds or something where they can converse with the bowler/keeper before deciding if to appeal against the umpires decision!

Once we've finished with VAR can we get started on the standard of the refs

Let"s face it the standard of refs in the Premier League is embarrassing.

It's almost like VAR is used to get the refs out of sh*t rather than make the correct decision.

No the Doku challenge wasn't looked at. The appeals I'm taking about is not to the VAR ref. It sends the match Ref direct to the monitor and the ref could quickly realise the error.

The biggest problem with VAR is the ludicrous 'clear & obvious ' error rule. It's not clearly defined and never can be. The solution is to give the power of appeal to the captain and to send the match ref to the pitch side monitor. It's not that time consuming, it would speed up decisions.

The Doku challenge was dismissed because Oliver said it was a 'coming together' VAR was heavily influenced by that, The captain appealing takes away the uncertainty surrounding the ludicrous 'clear & obvious' error tosh. It is the problem.

The Doku challenge was looked at by VAR


What difference would an appeal make

If another ref isn’t going to send a ref to the monitor then why would they bring in a system that a player can send the ref to the monitor

Just remove the ‘clear and obvious ‘ and have a system of reviewing every contentious incident as routine, then stopping play and returning to the incident if required. With no current refs on var, who can make the wrong decision to protect their mates on the pitch, as has happened in the past.

Just remove the ‘clear and obvious ‘ and have a system of reviewing every contentious incident as routine, then stopping play and returning to the incident if required. With no current refs on var, who can make the wrong decision to protect their mates on the pitch, as has happened in the past.

They already review every single contentious incident

If play was stopped every time there was an incident then games would last all day

The Doku challenge was looked at by VAR


What difference would an appeal make

If another ref isn’t going to send a ref to the monitor then why would they bring in a system that a player can send the ref to the monitor

They didn't look at it as a 'clear & obvious' error. An appeal system would change the whole dynamic. It would rule out the ridiculous 'C & O' error nonsense. They only intervene when they judge the ref has made a howler and it's the inconsistency of that that causes a lot of the issues.

A penalty appeal is made, the Ref disallows it. Then there is verbal communication and VAR, in my opinion, take their lead from that. Oliver..Doku.."Coming together....and VAR were influenced by that and there was no way they were going to overrule Oliver and send him to the monitor.

So another injustice. But if the captains have a say and why shouldn't they. So VVD appeals...Oliver goes and studies the video. Clearly a penalty.

But clearly the ridiculous charade will carry on.

They already review every single contentious incident

If play was stopped every time there was an incident then games would last all day

They don't have to stop for every issue. It's just pens and red cards and in a lot of games there's only one or two decisions to be made. The issue is the inconsistency of the C & O error and how often a ref gets sent to the monitor. At the minute it's a farce.

The Captains appeal system would also cut out a lot of the 'we were cheated' complaints.

Have to remember the pitch ref sees the incident in real time and very often gets his view blocked or at a bad angle. A quick review at pitch side by the pitch ref would speed up the whole process. Would also give the clubs an democratic right of appeal. Quick and easy. Lot less delay and no more misinterpretations....Mr .England take note.

They didn't look at it as a 'clear & obvious' error. An appeal system would change the whole dynamic. It would rule out the ridiculous 'C & O' error nonsense. They only intervene when they judge the ref has made a howler and it's the inconsistency of that that causes a lot of the issues.

A penalty appeal is made, the Ref disallows it. Then there is verbal communication and VAR, in my opinion, take their lead from that. Oliver..Doku.."Coming together....and VAR were influenced by that and there was no way they were going to overrule Oliver and send him to the monitor.

So another injustice. But if the captains have a say and why shouldn't they. So VVD appeals...Oliver goes and studies the video. Clearly a penalty.

But clearly the ridiculous charade will carry on.

But it’s always down to interpretation- and a qualified referee has agreed whilst watching multiple angles and slow mo’s to decided that the referees interpretation of the incident was ok

When it comes to those decisions it will be down to interpretation of the referee


And appeal process has the chance to be open to abuse - would just take one captain to appeal as the opposition is on the attack and they know there is trouble


Var needs

The semi automated system for offsides

And the VAR refs to be better and do their job better

It’s very “clear” when a referee has made a clear and obvious error and the Doku challenge wasn’t one

I don’t know how many times I have said that the PGMOL are the real problem and NOT the VAR system, hence the ppl using it and how ??

In the Investec European Rugby Union Competition they bring in referees from Europe, usually French, but that’s for another debate, the point I’m making is the use of Referees from outside of the UK, IE; Champagne League refs to work in the Premier League and our own Refs going the other way so that can learn and come into line with the rest of Europe,

The PGMOL have far too much sway in the VAR box, and therefore too much influence altogether, also the interpretation of one Ref will differ from another, in certain circumstances/incidents, in a word there is far too much/ many inconsistencies,

VAR is here to stay, unless of course 14 or more clubs veto it altogether, which I doubt would happen, but it does need to be realigned properly to ensure it works as it’s designed to and not be implemented by the PGMOL to suit their agenda’s, ie; Refs scratching each others back’s !!

Conversations between the onfield Ref and VAR should be audible, not only on your tv at home but in the Stadia on the day, in American football you can clearly hear the Ref/line judge, so why not in our own domestic game, if the tech is there use it ??

The questions that really need to be answered is why not, we have goal line tech in use, so why aren’t they using everything there is tech wise to ensure everything is covered, anything that assists the referee in this ever evolving game has to be used, ppl will say if we did use everything tech wise at our disposal we may as well get rid of refs altogether, I dunno about that but we certainly don’t use as much as we can at the moment and that’s not getting the job done properly is it ??


YNWA

Best solution is to stop letting bald fat middle aged men become REFS. Love to see some retired lower league players being trained as REFS it shouldn't be that difficult. Knowing the rules but not the game has brought us the worst bunch in a generation

According to Henry Winter the PL can veto the vote regardless.

End of discussion.

End of discussion.

No it isnt

They didn't look at it as a 'clear & obvious' error. An appeal system would change the whole dynamic. It would rule out the ridiculous 'C & O' error nonsense. They only intervene when they judge the ref has made a howler and it's the inconsistency of that that causes a lot of the issues.

A penalty appeal is made, the Ref disallows it. Then there is verbal communication and VAR, in my opinion, take their lead from that. Oliver..Doku.."Coming together....and VAR were influenced by that and there was no way they were going to overrule Oliver and send him to the monitor.

So another injustice. But if the captains have a say and why shouldn't they. So VVD appeals...Oliver goes and studies the video. Clearly a penalty.

But clearly the ridiculous charade will carry on.

And in this ideal scenario, if VVD is out of appeals by the 98th minute, what then? Will you accept the ref's call? No you won't, you'll still tell him he was wrong, and therefore the whole game is corrupt. Which it isn't.

VVD had his chance to appeal the incident at the time, but decided not to. One player made half an appeal but nobody else, not even those closest to the incident. Only after the game did the appeals come, which is too late at that stage.

Every time City have a penalty appeal, which is regularly, there is at least 3-4 of their players around the ref demanding he give it, even if it's debatable. So when the ref caves in, it won't be overturned. That's the difference.

You can only review a subjective incident on the monitor where the evidence from every possible angle, shows that the original decision on the pitch is clearly wrong, which is relatively rare. If every incident had to be reviewed, the game would last as long as NFL. Now I don't care how long it takes to get the right decision as justice is timeless, but most people would soon get fed up of 20 reviews of various incidents on a monitor per game, and so would you.