Potential vs Proven

You do though.. You hide behind snidey comments like the one I first quoted which has no substance at all

This isn't hiding and is fine, great something people can debate.

He has got questions to answer and problems to solve, asking questions on those are better than comments with no substance and you're better than that skip, I've read your stuff

If he doesn't solve them he will get sacked and to be honest I don't care if he is or not as all I want is a successful club..

OK PD  you are quite entitled to cherry pick what I say and your own interpretation of what you think is a comment ... and what you call a "sly dig".
I would call any such comment of mine cynical.  There is nothing "sly" about what I say.

Mick came out and asked if anyone wants to come out and debate BR ....... and my reservations have been known for a long time on the matter of the manager.

However your very last comment we both agree on.

At the end of the day all we want is best for the club.   
I just dont personally think what has happened, what is happening and the way things are going, is best for the club.

I have the right to say that ...   however I want to ......  and apportion blame where I see it to be.

 Finances permitting you buy whoever the manager wants

We can argue about this all day long.

For me, I wouldn't have bought Lambert, Lallana, Lovren or Markovic. I didn't agree with any of those signings. As for the other signings, (Manquillo, Moreno, Can, Origi and Balotelli) I was extremely pleased with as they are talented youngsters who have the ability to be brilliant in a few years time.

What we should have done during the summer transfer window was target these young talents but to also use the fact that we are back in the CL to buy a 2-3 established stars as well. With the £75m from Luis Suarez alone, we should have targeted players like Mehdi Benatia, Cesc Fabregas and Jackson Martinez for example (guaranteeing them first team football too). We should also have been back in for Yevhen Konoplyanka who would have cost half the amount of Markovic and would have impacted on the team from the off.

Come on skip

Judge the man on what he does and has done but some things simply look like digs mate

Wasn't Shanks what 45 when he took the job having managed at Grimsby and Huddersfield and never in Div 1?

Couldn't the same be said of promoting from with of Bob or Joe who had never managed for themselves. They may have known the club but were not experienced managers and only potential was seen in them to continue.

Don't like the man fine, want him gone or not, fine.. But at least dig the man out for things that are relevant

they all had solid footballing backgrounds as players.
Why I am and always have been on the fence with Brendan is his relationship to FSG seems to be too close for comfort and too "corporate"...too on message.
I don't mind his teeth or his new woman that's his private business.
what makes me doubt him is I think he isn't his own man when it comes to dealing with FSG.
I think is definitely aware of the clubs transfer policy yet he goes along with it. He must therefore think he can take players with little or no proven ability at the very top level and make them into CL quality players....not a chance never going to happen.
No manager could take this group of players and challenge for the league and top four would be a big ask.
That's why I will not ask for his head because changing the manager within the restraints he willingly works under is going to change nothing.
We struck gold with Luis and an average side suddenly looked like a title challenging side but we all know that the cracks were being papered over by the brilliance of our two front men.
Whilst Brendan could turn out to be a top manager under the restrictions of FSG he will never reach his potential the troubling thing is Brendan is complicit in the club stagnating .
Spending more money in January under the same rules as the summer will be wasted money.

Perhaps.

But as I said, Johnson was supposedly proven quality and has been sh*t. Same with Robbie Keane, Stewart Downing, Dejan Lovren and Mario Balotelli. Close to 100 million on proven quality who are actually overrated sh*t.

"Perhaps" F**k all billy... Its quite clear that you understand what type of players Rush was speaking about - quality.

Why you, and others like you, are getting hung up on the word "proven" rather than accepting that it's the "quality" part which is important [even tho you all acknowledge it in your posts] - F**k knows. A need to be right maybe?

Look at it another way - under FSG, during Brendan's reign, we buy players who are inexpensive and easier paid than their predecessors - players who, at worst won't lose a lot should they (invariably) fail but will make a lot when they are sold, should they, as individuals, succeed.

These easily paid players tend to be easier paid because they aren't F***ing proven quality.

Now... we can accept that it's actually happening now or we can bury our heads in the sand, try to cloud the issue and ignore it...

The fact is - we spent a lot of money on players who wouldn't command big wages - the reason they couldn't command big wages is... They aren't F***ing proven quality.

Go back in time all you want, seek exceptions to prove what you want, ignore all the quality which exists elsewhere when "proving" your point, pretend you miss the point, if it helps ... it won't change the here and now.

Without paying the going rate for proven QUALITY you won't F***ing attract it. 

Without paying the going rate for proven QUALITY you won't F***ing attract it. 

Pretty much sums it all up

they all had solid footballing backgrounds as players.
Why I am and always have been on the fence with Brendan is his relationship to FSG seems to be too close for comfort and too "corporate"...too on message.
I don't mind his teeth or his new woman that's his private business.
what makes me doubt him is I think he isn't his own man when it comes to dealing with FSG.
I think is definitely aware of the clubs transfer policy yet he goes along with it. He must therefore think he can take players with little or no proven ability at the very top level and make them into CL quality players....not a chance never going to happen.
No manager could take this group of players and challenge for the league and top four would be a big ask.
That's why I will not ask for his head because changing the manager within the restraints he willingly works under is going to change nothing.
We struck gold with Luis and an average side suddenly looked like a title challenging side but we all know that the cracks were being papered over by the brilliance of our two front men.
Whilst Brendan could turn out to be a top manager under the restrictions of FSG he will never reach his potential the troubling thing is Brendan is complicit in the club stagnating .
Spending more money in January under the same rules as the summer will be wasted money.

The stuff in bold completely sums up my view. There are two REALLY strange quotes in the BR thread too.
He comes over as a yes-man, a careerist manager who'll never have a problem getting a job because he sings from the same sheet as the owner-vampires all round Britain. I don't think he'll be as arsed about winning silverware tho.

The idea that he got the job because he produced a 200pg pretty "dossier" sums the whole thing up.

Should he go if we finish 5th?

I said yes, but now I think that it's a tough call to make because primarily, us fans have no idea who is pulling what strings behind the curtain.

I say a manager will stand and fall by the players he brings into a football team. But who is picking the players? If it is just the Gaffer picking these transfer targets, then I see no reason to keep him here if we miss out on 4th. But what if he's picking all the stellar ones and it's an interfering committee that's to blame for the weaker signings? Another manager comes in and we're back to square one with the interfering committee

These days we can't even make an educated guess as to what is really going wrong. FSG know, and the Gaffer knows, so if people are pulling in the wrong direction, it's up to the Gaffer to do what's right for the club.

I'm not sure Brendan is as corporate or on message as you think. Stevie in his recent press briefing was clearly allowed to question the transfer policy with Brendan's approval..........

I'm not sure Brendan is as corporate or on message as you think. Stevie in his recent press briefing was clearly allowed to question the transfer policy with Brendan's approval..........

Have we got a ripple of discontent?
Could there conceivably be anything linking his perceived unease with LFC policy and his recent mutterings about playing elsewhere?
Ripples indeed.

there are certain types of player every team needs We had Kuyt City have Milner not my favourite player but he does his job.We had Craig Johnson, Steve McMahon Houghton etc not all world beaters but put them into a team environment and they thrive.
Alan Kennedy scored two winning goals in the European Cup he was never world class or even international class,Alan Hansen couldn't get a game for Scotland so if you used the methods we are using today I doubt we would ever have signed any of them.
Your not buying a player you are building a team its a jigsaw puzzle without picture to refer to.
We have players now but not a team the difference last year is we had the very best players in Luis and a very very good  partner in Daniel. Athletico won the league last year ahead of Madrid and Barca on a fraction of their budgets so its not all about money although we have all been brainwashed into thinking it is

Weren't they as a direct of Sir Bob's ethos of when he had to go into the transfer market he'd buy 3 players. One would be a class player, another would be a proven player and then he'd buy one who had the potential to mix in and up his level of play due to surrounding team mates? I don't ever recall him buying a 'dud'. Sir Bob played to a system and bought players accordingly.

A big part of Brendan's problem is that he's bought too many players with no thought as to what system to adopt or which system works best. All of which stems from not identifying a suitable and 'proven' replacement for Suarez.   

Should he go if we finish 5th?

I said yes, but now I think that it's a tough call to make because primarily, us fans have no idea who is pulling what strings behind the curtain.

I say a manager will stand and fall by the players he brings into a football team. But who is picking the players? If it is just the Gaffer picking these transfer targets, then I see no reason to keep him here if we miss out on 4th. But what if he's picking all the stellar ones and it's an interfering committee that's to blame for the weaker signings? Another manager comes in and we're back to square one with the interfering committee

These days we can't even make an educated guess as to what is really going wrong. FSG know, and the Gaffer knows, so if people are pulling in the wrong direction, it's up to the Gaffer to do what's right for the club.

I'm completely unenthralled by Rodgers but I couldn't demand he was sacked for finishing 5th. Because ultimately, on current measures we are the 4th or 5th best team in England. Maybe Wanc Utd will slip up. Maybe Arsehole FC under Wenger will. But we're WAY behind Chelsea and Manc City. Thats my view on recent years performances, wage bills and net spends etc.

And I dread to think who they'd bring in to replace Rodgers. Malky Mackay? Some other "up and coming star" (read cheap waged nobody who never won a thing, and will follow orders like a toy poodle).

"Perhaps" F**k all billy... Its quite clear that you understand what type of players Rush was speaking about - quality.

Why you, and others like you, are getting hung up on the word "proven" rather than accepting that it's the "quality" part which is important [even tho you all acknowledge it in your posts] - F**k knows. A need to be right maybe?

Look at it another way - under FSG, during Brendan's reign, we buy players who are inexpensive and easier paid than their predecessors - players who, at worst won't lose a lot should they (invariably) fail but will make a lot when they are sold, should they, as individuals, succeed.

These easily paid players tend to be easier paid because they aren't F***ing proven quality.

Now... we can accept that it's actually happening now or we can bury our heads in the sand, try to cloud the issue and ignore it...

The fact is - we spent a lot of money on players who wouldn't command big wages - the reason they couldn't command big wages is... They aren't F***ing proven quality.

Go back in time all you want, seek exceptions to prove what you want, ignore all the quality which exists elsewhere when "proving" your point, pretend you miss the point, if it helps ... it won't change the here and now.

Without paying the going rate for proven QUALITY you won't F***ing attract it. 

It's nothing to do with being right. I don't really give a toss whether I'm right or not on any subject. (though I do usually end up spot on)

But the fact of the matter is we have bought what is perceived to be proven quality when they are in fact sh*t. I've already listed a handful of names but just so people can keep up, Johnson, Downing, Keane, Balotelli. Wasted millions on proven quality.

I also question "inexpensive players". Maybe wage wise but transfer fees hardly. Over 200 million in just over 2 years (excluding loans) is hardly being a skinflint. We've wasted money, both on "proven" and "potential". Would you consider a two-time Premiership winner and a man with over 100 international caps proven quality because Kolo Toure can lay claim to that and he's been F***ing sh*t for us. Would you consider a three time Serie A and one time Premiership player proven quality because that's Mario Balotelli's resume and he's been F***ing sh*t for us. Chelsea spent a British record of 50 mill on a proven quality forward like Shevchenko and Torres. Both were sh*t for Chelsea.

So I take it proven quality is only proven quality when it works like it has with Fabregas?

We've bought proven quality both on the cheap and for a fair whack, we've still ended up with the short straw. It doesn't matter if you're proven quality or not, if you're not up to the job or it just doesn't work out for you at a certain club then the club that has spent the "going rate for proven QUALITY" is still gonna be fu**ed. (whether they attract it or not)

But the fact of the matter is we have bought what is perceived to be proven quality when they are in fact sh*t. I've already listed a handful of names but just so people can keep up, Johnson, Downing, Keane, Balotelli. Wasted millions on proven quality.

Here's the difference, and it is  subjective call I'll admit, but in my estimation, whilst those players are good players, Keane never got a chance, Johnson 'was' quality for the first 3 seasons, so no worries there, Balotelli? A headache at the best of times and if we had the pick of a City player whilst he was there, i doubt he'd be first choice. But Downing, proven quality? Nowhere near. You can't say Downing was ever quality; not for us and not for Boro (was it?)

So I take it proven quality is only proven quality when it works like it has with Fabregas?

Yes. What other proven quality is there? I'm not trying to be clever, I'm being genuine. I'm sorry but it's painfully obvious to me which players are proven quality and which are potential or just decent signings.

Cold hard truth though, is that all the proven quality are either playing for other Prem teams (the usual suspects) or Barca and Madrid.

But this is not going to devolve into a 'what is proven quality' debate. My point was that FSG don't go anywhere near it, and only seem to go for potential quality.

Here's the difference, and it is  subjective call I'll admit, but in my estimation, whilst those players are good players, Keane never got a chance, Johnson 'was' quality for the first 3 seasons, so no worries there, Balotelli? A headache at the best of times and if we had the pick of a City player whilst he was there, i doubt he'd be first choice. But Downing, proven quality? Nowhere near. You can't say Downing was ever quality; not for us and not for Boro (was it?)

We will have to agree to disagree on Johnson, he has been sh*t since the day he signed as far as I'm concerned. (I'm not just saying this either, I've always felt it). Keane was given plenty of chances but wasn't up to it for Liverpool, some players just don't fit certain clubs. Keane was one of them for us, Shevchenko/Torres/Kezman/Crespo/Mutu for Chelsea. Balotelli, while I think he always been sh*t, is perceived to be quality. Downing, again while I think he's always been sh*t, is perceived to be quality. He'd had a decent year at Villa and has been a revelation for West Ham since we sold him.

And after Downing's early games for us, some were raving about him. I remember him being hailed for his performance against Arsenal in particular.

This is my point about perceived proven quality. Some get all the hype when they don't deserve it and we buy them. I'd put Lukaku in that category right now. He's somebody I would of loved for us to get in the summer. But this year, I wouldn't go near him - after his big money move. Everton fans would of felt they were getting proven quality and had paid for it but he's been a massive disappointment for them this term.

Yes. What other proven quality is there? I'm not trying to be clever, I'm being genuine. I'm sorry but it's painfully obvious to me which players are proven quality and which are potential or just decent signings.

Cold hard truth though, is that all the proven quality are either playing for other Prem teams (the usual suspects) or Barca and Madrid.

But this is not going to devolve into a 'what is proven quality' debate. My point was that FSG don't go anywhere near it, and only seem to go for potential quality.

What other proven quality is there out there? Well truth be told, none. As I've said, some players just don't work out at certain clubs. Look at Ronaldo, one of the world's greatest players but for years at United he was considered a flop and it looked like we got lucky by not buying him when Houllier had the chance. Even if he did come here, who's to say he'd be the player he is now? I've already listed plenty at Chelsea. The uproar that was on here when we missed out on getting Villas-Boas as manager and look how he has faired as a Premier League manager.

But this is not going to devolve into a 'what is proven quality' debate. My point was that FSG don't go anywhere near it, and only seem to go for potential quality.

I'll disagree they only go with potential. I think if anything they're more guilty of going for "flavour of the month" type players who've just had a decent six months to a year.

But what happens when you just keep shoving out "potential" and signing more "potential" and then doing it all over again the following summer?

But what happens when you just keep shoving out "potential" and signing more "potential" and then doing it all over again the following summer?

At what point do FSG say enough is enough we need to review this process as its clearly not working

At what point do FSG say enough is enough we need to review this process as its clearly not working

If this season doesn't improve then you'd expect it to be as soon as. Would it happen? I doubt it.

At what point do FSG say enough is enough we need to review this process as its clearly not working

I think the only one they'd be worried about from this summers window would be Lovren as all the others are still young with time to improve, just how they like them.  Lambert and Toure were stop gaps that didn't cost much.

Unlike us they are prepared to give them time and I don't mean a few games, I'm talking at least a season, more like two and in some cases possibly even 3.

They don't see things like we do, they're businessmen.

Should he go if we finish 5th?

No.

I think the only one they'd be worried about from this summers window would be Lovren as all the others are still young with time to improve, just how they like them.  Lambert and Toure were stop gaps that didn't cost much.

Unlike us they are prepared to give them time and I don't mean a few games, I'm talking at least a season, more like two and in some cases possibly even 3.

They don't see things like we do, they're businessmen.

what about Brendan I am sure he wants to progress in his career but if all he becomes is a nursery for potential profit making players he is going to eventually get pissed of too.

Liverpool isn't Ajax to develop talents, yes it is good to have some young prospects for the future, but what we need is proven players, we don't have the time to develop young players, we need trophies and UCL football, we could have young players but our main core should be build on proven and the best case scenario is that they are both , see Sterling, Sturridge.

I think the only one they'd be worried about from this summers window would be Lovren as all the others are still young with time to improve, just how they like them.  Lambert and Toure were stop gaps that didn't cost much.

Unlike us they are prepared to give them time and I don't mean a few games, I'm talking at least a season, more like two and in some cases possibly even 3.

They don't see things like we do, they're businessmen.

They're business men with a business model that isn't working on any level. It's not providing short term returns nor long term sustainability. How many of these potentials have broken through? There has been at least seven potentials brought in during FSG's time of an age that now one would expect to see them breaking through yet they've neither been sold for a profit nor broken through to the first team. They're sitting in obscurity somewhere. The business model isn't working and FSG for the sake of their own profits, never mind the club's success, need to revaluate it if this season ends in failure.